Trials in the 3
lawsuits against the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban
Act began Monday, March 29th in three separate
U.S. District Courts. The primary plaintiff in
the Southern District of New York is the
National Abortion Federation (NAF); the
plaintiffs in the District of Nebraska are Dr.
Leroy Carhart and several other abortion doctors
(Abortion Doctors), and the primary plaintiff in
the Northern District of California is Planned
Parenthood Federation of America (PPFA). The
Attorney General of the United States is the
defendant in each case.
After opening
statements from each side, plaintiffs began
presenting their evidence. Excerpts from the
unofficial transcripts of testimony from the
first 3 days of trial appear below.
We urge you to
spread this news far and wide. The press
refuses to print this testimony although it
involves a landmark decision by Congress and
signed into law by President Bush. If you
thought this procedure was rarely performed and
only involves a specific method of partial birth
abortion, think again. Read what the
abortionists who are performing these heinous
acts have to say themselves.
Read Current Updates on The Testimony
WARNING: WHAT YOU ARE ABOUT TO READ IS GRAPHIC,
GRUESOME AND WILL NO DOUBT, BREAK YOUR HEART.
COURT
TRANSCRIPTS AS PROVIDED BY THE USCCB PRO-LIFE
SECRETARIAT OFFICE
April 2, 2004
NEW YORK CASE.
DAY TWO: Tuesday,
March 30, 2004.
Excerpts from
NAF's re-direct examination of Dr. Amos
Grunebaum:
THE COURT.
Doctor, you mentioned earlier today that you
believe in full disclosure to your patients as
to the procedures and the various possibilities
that are available.
THE WITNESS. Yes,
I do.
THE COURT. And
that you spell out for the woman just what is
entailed in a D&E that involves dismemberment,
correct.
THE WITNESS. Yes,
I do.
THE COURT. You
also spell out that if you are doing an intact
D&E or D&X or partial-birth abortion, whichever
term is used, that that entailed a partial
delivery, and then the procedure you described
of inserting the scissors in the base of the
skull and using a suction devise to remove the
brain.
THE WITNESS. Yes,
I do.
~
THE COURT. And
that some of them desire that because after the
procedure if they want to see or hold the dead
fetus, is that correct?
THE WITNESS.
Yes.
THE COURT. I
believe you mentioned also take pictures, is
that correct?
THE WITNESS.
Yes. That is part of our common policy -- it
changed about ten years ago -- that we take
pictures.
THE COURT. This
is part of the grieving process?
THE WITNESS.
Absolutely. We have been told by grieving
counselors to take pictures of all dead fetuses
and babies -- specifically babies, but also
fetuses -- so there is a memory of the baby by
the mother.
DAY THREE:
Wednesday, March 31, 2004
Excerpts from
NAF's direct examination of Dr. Timothy Johnson:
Q. Do you have an
opinion, Dr. Johnson, as to which of the two D&E
variations, the intact or the dismemberment
variation, may best facilitate the extraction of
the fetal skull during an abortion procedure?
A. I think that
the intact procedure is actually developed in
part to deal with the problem of the fetal
skull. When one does a D&E, technically one of
the challenges is to remove the fetal skull,
partly because it is relatively large, partly
because it is relatively calcified, and it is
difficult to grasp on occasion. So one of the
common technical challenges of a dismemberment
D&E is what is called a free-floating head or a
head that has become disattached and needs to be
removed. This can lead to more passages of
instruments through the cervix. And technically
it is difficult to grasp the head; it is round,
it slips out of the instruments that we
generally use. Either those instruments or the
head can be extruded outside the uterus and
cause perforation.
~
Q. Did you make any observation of the way the
physician performing that intact D&E effected
the incision into the skull?
A. In the situations that I have observed, they
either -- actually, the procedures that I have
observed, they all used a crushing instrument to
deliver the head, and they did it under direct
vision.
Q. Thank you, Doctor.
THE COURT: Can you explain to me what that
means.
THE WITNESS: What they did was they delivered
the fetus intact until the head was still
trapped behind the cervix, and then they reached
up and crushed the head in order to deliver it
through the cervix.
THE COURT: What did they utilize to crush the
head?
THE WITNESS: An instrument, a large pair of
forceps that have a round, serrated edge at the
end of it, so that they were able to bring them
together and crush the head between the ends of
the instrument.
THE COURT: Like the cracker they use to crack a
lobster shell, serrated edge?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE COURT: Describe it for me.
THE WITNESS: It would be like the end of tongs
that are combined that you use to pick up
salad. So they would be articulated in the
center and you could move one end, and there
would be a branch at the center. The
instruments are thick enough and heavy enough
that you can actually grasp and crush with those
instruments as if you were picking up salad or
picking up anything with --
THE COURT: Except here you are crushing the
head of a baby.
THE WITNESS: Correct.
~
THE COURT: Was the body outside the woman's
body to an extent?
THE WITNESS: Some of it. It can be or not.
Some of it can be or -- it depends on where the
cervix is. It depends on where the uterus is.
It depends how long the baby is. It depends how
long the mother's vagina is.
THE COURT: At some times that you observed it
was?
THE WITNESS: Right. And sometimes during the
procedure the cervix can actually be brought
down so that -- the cervix and the uterus can be
moved up and down relative to the opening of the
vagina.
THE COURT: An affidavit I saw earlier said
sometimes, I take it, the fetus is alive until
they crush the skull?
THE WITNESS: That's correct, yes, sir.
THE COURT: In one affidavit I saw attached
earlier in this proceeding, were the fingers of
the baby opening and closing?
THE WITNESS: It would depend where the hands
were and whether or not you could see them.
THE COURT: Were they in some instances?
THE WITNESS: Not that I remember. I don't
think I have ever looked at the hands.
THE COURT: Were the feet moving?
THE WITNESS: Feet could be moving, yes.
~
THE COURT: If you are all finished let me just
ask you a couple questions, Dr. Johnson. I
heard you talk a lot today about dismemberment
D&E procedure, second trimester; does the fetus
feel pain?
THE WITNESS: I guess I --
THE COURT: There are studies, I'm told, that
says they do. Is that correct?
THE WITNESS: I don't know. I don't know of any
-- I can't answer your question. I don't know
of any scientific evidence one way or the other.
THE COURT: Have you heard that there are
studies saying so?
THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of any.
THE COURT: You never heard of any?
THE WITNESS: I'm aware of fetal behavioral
studies that have looked at fetal responses to
noxious stimuli.
THE COURT: Does it ever cross your mind when
you are doing a dismemberment?
THE COURT: Simple question, Doctor. Does it
cross your mind?
THE WITNESS: Does the fetus having pain cross
your mind?
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: No.
THE COURT: Never crossed your mind.
THE WITNESS: No.
THE COURT: When you have done D&Es or when you
have done abortions, do you tell the woman
various options that are available to her?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: And do you explain what is involved
like in D&E, the dismemberment variation? Do
you tell her that?
THE WITNESS: We would describe the procedure,
yes.
THE COURT: So you tell her the arms and legs
are pulled off. I mean, that's what I want to
know, do you tell her?
THE WITNESS: We tell her the baby, the fetus is
dismembered as part of the procedure, yes.
THE COURT: You are going to remove parts of her
baby.
THE WITNESS: Correct.
THE COURT: Are you ever asked, Does it hurt?
THE WITNESS: Are we ever asked by the patient?
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: I don't ever remember being asked.
THE COURT: And although you have never done an
intact D&E, do you know whether or not the
incision of the scissors in the base of the
skull of the baby, whether that hurts?
THE WITNESS: Well, I guess my response would be
I think that the baby feels it but I'm not sure
how pain registers on the brain at that
gestational age. I'm not sure how a fetus at 20
weeks or 22 weeks processes and understands
pain.
THE COURT: You have never done one of these
procedures but did you ever ask what -- you say
you know about it clinically, did you ever ask
one of those who perform them whether it hurts
the fetus?
THE WITNESS: No, sir.
THE COURT: When you describe the possibilities
available to a woman do you describe in detail
what the intact D&E or the partial birth
abortion involves?
THE WITNESS: Since I don't do that procedure I
wouldn't have described it.
THE COURT: Did you ever participate with
another doctor describing it to a woman
considering such an abortion?
THE WITNESS: Yes. And the description would
be, I would think, descriptive of what was going
to be, what was going to happen; the
description.
THE COURT: Including sucking the brain out of
the skull?
THE WITNESS: I don't think we would use those
terms. I think we would probably use a term
like decompression of the skull or reducing the
contents of the skull.
THE COURT: Make it nice and palatable so that
they wouldn't understand what it's all about?
THE WITNESS: No. I think we want them to
understand what it's all about but it's -- I
think it's -- I guess I would say that whenever
we describe medical procedures we try to do it
in a way that's not offensive or gruesome or
overly graphic for patients.
THE COURT: Can they fully comprehend unless you
do? Not all of these mothers are Rhodes scholars
or highly educated, are they?
THE WITNESS: No, that's true. But I'm also not
exactly sure what using terminology like sucking
the brains out would --
THE COURT: That's what happens, doesn't it?
THE WITNESS: Well, in some situations that
might happen. There are different ways that an
after-coming head could be dealt with but that
is one way of describing it.
THE COURT: Isn't that what actually happens?
You do Use a suction device, right?
THE WITNESS: Well, there are physicians who do
that procedure who use a suction device to
evacuate the intercranial
Excerpts from
NAF's direct examination of Dr. Cassing Hammond:
THE COURT: Do they give full disclosure as to
the various procedures available and what is
entailed, such as the dismemberment, in some
forms of D&E?
THE WITNESS: If they do not and then the
patient is referred to me for D&E, we do tell
the patient what's entailed in a D&E.
THE COURT: In simple, clear English?
THE WITNESS: I think so, your Honor, yes. Now,
there are variations, depending on the patient's
own kind of psychological situation that we
clearly take into consideration, but we actually
have a large number of patients who look at us
and say, let me get this straight. What you
will be doing is dismembering the fetus. And we
say, yes, that's exactly what we are doing.
THE COURT: Do you tell them what happens when
they do an intact D&E?
THE WITNESS: If the patient --
THE COURT: The brain is sucked out?
THE WITNESS: Well I don't -- as a point of
fact, your Honor, I don't usually do the suction
part. I do compress the calvarium and I do some
other procedures. I don't actually do suction
so I don't explain that part.
THE COURT: You don't explain that to them?
THE WITNESS: Well I explain the method.
THE COURT: You explain what a compression of
the calvarium is?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir; that I do explain.
THE COURT: That that's crushing the skull?
THE WITNESS: I explain that, yes.
NEBRASKA CASE.
DAY TWO: Tuesday,
March 30, 2004.
Excerpts from
Abortion Doctors' direct examination of Dr.
William Fitzhugh:
Q. All right.
Going back now, I think you said in some
instances when you use a suction cannula, that
part of the fetus or the umbilical cord will
come out through the cervix. Then what do you
do at that point?
A. Well, if the
umbilical cord comes down, I unattach that from
its integrity. I just break it and pull on it.
If a foot comes down, I grab the foot and pull
down on that.
Q. If no part
comes down, as a result of the suction, what do
you do?
A. Then I have to
place the ring forceps up into the uterus and
find a part.
Q. And is there a
particular part that you're trying to grasp, at
that point?
A. I take
whatever I can get, because I have really -- I
have a feel of when you feel the cranium of the
head, but that's about the only thing I have a
feel of when you grasp until you pull it down. …
I just pull down with the forceps and, you know,
see what part you have, and see if you can get
more of that part out. If you get more of the
part out, you twist to try to get more tissue
out. If that doesn't happen, then you pull hard
enough that it will disarticulate at that point
or break off at that point.
~
Q. Do you have
other concerns, when you find yourself in that
situation, to cause you to use forceps to
compress the skull?
A. As I mentioned
earlier, my preference is that when I use a
suction, my preference is that I obtain the
umbilical cord and separate the umbilical cord.
The one thing that I want--and I don't want the
staff to have to deal with is to have a fetus
that you remove and have some viability to it,
some movement of limbs, because it's always a
difficult situation.
Q. So one of the
reasons that you use the forceps is to compress
the skull is to ensure that the fetus is dead
when you remove it?
A. That's one of
the reasons.
~
Q. ....what
actions do you take during a D & E that would be
fatal to the fetus?
A. Well, number
one, I like to interrupt the umbilical cord.
Number two, we are working on a young gestation,
but that's not to do it. And we break up parts
in the uterus and we crush skulls.
~
Q. Can you tell
the Court how often the fetus comes through
entirely intact, without you having to do
anything more to remove it?
A. It happens
about two to five times a year. And in those
situations, it will occur one of two ways. One
is that the ladies has had some labor up to that
point. And when I remove the speculum, the
laminaria and sponges from the vagina, she'll
already have a foot in the vagina or two feet in
the vagina. That's one of the times it
happens. And the other time it happens is when
I reach up and deliberately grasp for
something. I will get a foot, bring it down,
and the whole body will come down. And it
happens about two to five times a year.
Q. And in that
situation, is the entire fetus coming out or is
it any part of it remaining in the uterus? Is
the head --
A. It can happen
either way. I would say one time out of those
that I will pull and everything will come out.
I'll pull and twist and everything will come
out. And probably two or three times, I'll have
to pull and the head will get stuck against the
cervix. So I'll have to use my ring forceps and
crush the skull.
~
Q. So other than
drugs or making incisions in the cervix, could
you simply detach the head at that point?
A. I guess you
could, but then you would have to find it. …
Q. Does it every
happen that you would disarticulate a piece of
the fetus, and then on the next pass, bring out
the remainder of the fetus, except for the head?
A. Its happened
that way, disarticulated up to a knee joint.
You grab the next grasp and you brought most
everything out.
~
Q. But some of
them are alive at the time you do the procedure?
A. The majority
of them are alive at the time.
Excerpts from the
Government's cross-examination of Dr. Fitzhugh:
Q. So when you're
doing the D & E procedure that you do, you
expect dismemberment to occur; is that correct?
A. It happens in
the majority of cases, not expected, but it sure
would be nice if it happened more often.
~
Q. When there
have been instances where the -- you have been
doing a D & E and the fetus has come out intact,
have you been aware of reactions from others in
the operating room?
[Here counsel
for the plaintiffs entered an objection, which
the Court overruled.]
A. Yes, they
certainly show more interest in that when it
happens than they do on a routine situation.
Q. In fact, they
gasp, don't they, when that kind of thing
happens?
A. Some of them
gasp, yes, sir.
Q. Your
impression in those situations is that they were
probably having a harder time dealing with that
situation; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Excerpts from
Abortion Doctors' direct examination of Dr. Jill
Vibhakar:
Q. And after the
grasp part passes through the cervix, what
typically happens then?
A. At some point,
the more proximal part of the fetus that remains
in the uterus becomes too large to fit through
the cervix, and so it becomes, pulls apart from
the rest of the body and becomes -- or it
becomes disarticulated.
Q. Okay. Is there
an average number of times that you reach into
the uterus? ....
A. No. It
generally requires multiple passes.
~
Q. And have you
had any situations where the fetus is not
necessarily coming out feet first but where
part of the fetal trunk past the naval has come
outside the mother?
A. Yes, . . . the
upper extremity is removed included [sic] the
shoulder area, and sometimes when--sometimes
when we are doing the D & E, some of the first
things that are removed are maybe a portion of
skin from the trunk or even ribs or other trunk
contents.
~
Q. And can the
fetus still be living in that it has a heartbeat
or other signs of life at that time?
A. Possibly, yes.
~
Q. Do you know
when the removal of the fetus, fetal demise
occurs?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Is there any
clinical significance to when you cause fetal
demise during the procedure?
A. Not in my
opinion.
Excerpts from
Government's cross examination of Dr. Vibhakar:
Q. Okay. When
the head was struck, you disarticulated the body
from the head; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you
removed the body, compressed the head and
removed the head; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And in
decompressing the skull, you're trying to reduce
its sides [sic] so it can fit through the
cervix?
A. Yes.
Q. And when you
are doing this, you're trying to remove skull
pieces so the liquid brain will empty from the
cranium and the head will decrease in size; is
that correct?
A. And in
compressing it, if it doesn't fit, and in my
experience it hasn't fit without decompressing
it in the process of crushing it or grasping it,
it becomes punctured enough so that the cranial
contents will drain, and then it will fit
through the cervix.
~
A. ....There was
one instance where one of our faculty who
doesn't normally perform them agreed to perform
one on the labor floor, and then her mother
needed emergency surgery, and in order to allow
her to be with her mother, I came off my
maternal leave to complete the D & E, …
DAY THREE:
Wednesday, March 31, 2004.
Excerpts from
Abortion Doctors' direct examination of Dr.
William Knorr:
Q. Can you tell
the Court approximately how many abortions you
performed last year?
A. Somewhere
between five and six thousand.
Q. Of those, can
you estimate how many were second trimester
abortions?
A. Somewhere
between 12 and 15%.
~
Q. Dr. Knorr,
before you begin to remove the fetus during a D
& E procedure, is the fetus typically alive?
A. . . . . the
majority of the fetuses are alive.
Q. And you don't
routinely induce fetal demise, as part of your
second trimester abortion procedures, is that
right?
A. That's
right. Very rarely.
Q. And why not?
A. I just don't
believe in it . I think that it's an extra
procedure and, you know, we first have to
remember, don't do any harm.
~
Q. When it
happens and the fetus comes through the cervix
except for the head, how do you proceed?
A. I first
evaluate the cervix to see if I have enough room
to slip a finger between the cervix and the
fetal head, and if I can do that, I can then
insert my crushing forcep around the head, crush
the head and extract it. If the cervix if very
tight, I can't do that, I will use a craniotomy
procedure, will turn the fetus so the back is up
and find the area that I want to open, and
either with a finger, dialator or a scissor will
open that area and gently pull down. That
pressure alone is enough to empty the cranium
and extract the head.
~
Q. And why don't
you routinely do second trimester abortions by
induction?
A. I don't really
have the ability to do that. I cannot put a
woman in the hospital where I have privileges
and admit her for an elective abortion beyond 12
weeks of gestation, and even if I wanted to do
12 weeks and under, I can usually never find a
nurse that will accompany me to the OR to do it.
Excerpts from
Government's cross examination of Dr. Knorr:
Q. Also when you
bring out a fetus in pieces, you make sure that
you have got all the parts that you want;
right? You kind of --
A. Yes.
Q. You try and
lay them out and put them back together as best
you can to see if you have everything?
A. Not
necessarily. Some of us keep track on the way
out.
~
Q. Dr. Knorr, is
the procedure you perform consistent with this
definition in DX 651?
A. No.
Q. In what way?
A. … Breech
extraction of the body excepting the head, well,
according to the way I do my procedure, that
sometimes occurs. Partial evacuation of the
intracranial contents of a living fetus to
effect delivery of a dead but otherwise intact
fetus, yes, I do do that.
~
Q. Doctor, when
you do have an intact extraction and the head
gets stuck at the cervical os and then you do
something to bring the head out, you testified
on direct that sometimes the fetus is alive
before you open the skull?
A. Yes.
Q. Right. How
can you tell? What signs of life are there?
A. Well, as I
think I stated in my testimony, these fetuses
are grossly obtuned, meaning that they have a
lack of oxygen due to the tetanic contraction.
They have some oxygen, there will be a fetal
heartbeat, but they are generally limp. Does
that answer your question?
CALIFORNIA CASE.
DAY ONE: Monday,
March 29, 2004
Excerpts from
PPFA's direct examination of its lead witness,
Dr. Maureen Paul:
Q. And when you
begin the evacuation, is the fetus ever alive?
A. Yes.
Q. How do you
know that?
A. Because I do
many of my procedures especially at 16 weeks
under an ultrasound guidance, so I will see a
heartbeat.
Q. Do you pay
attention to that while you are doing the
abortion?
A. Not
particularly. I just notice sometimes.
~
Q. Okay. Does it
every come out completely without the head
becoming lodged?
A. Rarely it
does.
~
Q. And you had
said that sometimes when you apply traction to
the fetus it comes out intact up to point where
the calvarium lodges; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. In that
circumstance, what do you do to complete the
procedure?
A. Well, there
are two things you can do. You can
disarticulate at the neck, or what I prefer to
do is to just reach in with my forceps and
collapse the skull and bring the fetus out
intact.
~
Q. You testified
earlier, Dr. Paul, that the fetus can be alive
when the evacuation begins; is that correct?
A. That's right.
Q. When in the
course of the abortion does the fetus -- does
fetal demise occur?
A. I don't know
for sure. I certainly know that if I deliver
intact and collapse the skull that demise
occurs.
Excerpts from the
Government's cross-examination of Dr. Paul:
Q. In performing
a D&E at 20 weeks gestational age and above, in
your previous capacity, was there ever a time
when you saw any indication that the fetus was
experiencing pain?
A. I have no idea
what that means.
DAY TWO: Tuesday,
March 30, 2004
Excerpts from
PPFA's direct examination of Dr. Katharine
Sheehan:
Q. Okay. So
after you have assessed the fetal presentation,
What do you do next?
A. Then, a
cervical block of local anesthetic is placed
around the cervix, and the amniotic sac is
ruptured, allowing the amniotic fluid to flow
out. And, then, using the forceps, I begin the
procedure if extracting the fetal part.
Q. And how do you
go about doing that?
A. I generally
try using the ultrasound to find the small parts
of the fetus, “small parts” being considered the
extremities. I really prefer it if the lower
extremities are presented first. I can grasp
the lower extremities of the fetus, and using
gentle traction, extract the tissue.
Q. And after you
have done that, what do you have? What happens
next?
A. I continue to
put traction on the fetus tissue. If the cervix
is adequately dilated, then the fetus will
generally slide down through the cervix, and I
continue to extract the tissue until it is
completely extracted. If the cervix is not so
well dilated, then disarticulation and
dismemberment happens.
~
Q. So do you ever
use a chemical agent to cause fetal demise?
A. Yes.
Q. What is that
agent?
A. The agent is
Digoxin.
Q. What is
Digoxin?
A. Digoxin is the
name for Digitalis, which is a cardiac medicine
that is typically used for specific cardiac
conditions, most typically heart failure.
Q. And at what
gestational age do you use Digoxin?
A. We start using
it at 22 weeks.
Q. Why do you
choose 22 weeks?
A. We like to
prevent an eventuality of a live birth, and
because it seems to make the procedure move
along a little bit easier on the day of the
procedure. …We administer the Digoxin with a
needle through the abdominal wall of the woman
intro the uterus. We are aiming to get it into
the fetal heart, or at least into the fetal
thorax. However, we are not able to do that
every time. If we are not able to do that, then
we attempt to put the Diogoxin into the amniotic
fluid. And it seems to work less often when it
is just put into the amniotic fluid.
Q. What
percentage of time are you successful in getting
the Digoxin into the fetal heart?
A. I would say
approximately 50 percent.
~
Q. And what about
the term "living fetus," what does that mean to
you?
A. It would be a
fetus that still has a heartbeat, and that would
still apply to many of my cases.
Q. And in your
practice do you bring the fetus to the point
where the fetal trunk past the navel is outside
the body of the woman?
A. Yes, I do.
That's what I mainly do.
Q. And that
happens often?
A. Yes.
~
Q. You testified
yesterday, I believe, that you have performed
approximately 30,000 surgical abortions
throughout your career?
A. That is my
best guess.
Excerpts from the
Government's cross-examination Dr. Sheehan:
Q. Thank you. If
I could read that to you, page 101 [of Dr.
Sheehan’s deposition], starting on line 22.and I
should say first this question refers to your
expert report; is that correct?
A. Uh-huh.
Q.
“Question: Could you describe, doctor, what you
mean in paragraph 4 by your ‘best efforts to
remove the fetus intact?
Answer: I think I
already described that, but what I attempt to do
is to grasp the fetal feet with the instrument,
and putting gentle traction on that fetal
extremity, I try to tease the tissue down so
that the fetus comes down feet first through the
cervix, the pelvis and the thorax, and I
actually get the arms out and just use gentle
traction, rather than using the kind of crushing
and compressing gestures that one would use to
do the disarticulation.”
Is that what you
said?
A. Yes.
Excerpts from
PPFA’s direct examination of Dr. Eleanor Drey:
Q. And was there a time frame of when [Digoxin]
was given?
A. When we first started giving it, we always
gave it at the time that we were doing our
pre-operative evaluation, so that the patient
would get the laminaria placed. And then, after
that, she would have the Digoxin injection. At
that time we were waiting two days with the
laminaria in place. And, so, initially we were
giving Digoxin two days before D&E.
Q. And did you ever change that procedure, that
time schedule?
A. We did. What started happening was we had
an unfortunate number of women who were
spontaneously going into labor and delivering at
hospitals sort of all over the bay area, and it
was distressing to everyone.